Comments for Irreducible Complexity

Comment on What is the Probability of God's Existence? by John Clavin

John Clavin — Fri, 17 May 2013 09:29:24 +0000

I have to agree with Greg on this. The only answer is zero probability. If there was intent to create existence then that intent had to come from somewhere and we would have turtles all the way down.
There is a great scene at the beginning of “Star Trek Into Darkness” (2013) where the primitive tribesmen find their God.

Comment on What is the Probability of God's Existence? by Ian

Ian — Fri, 17 May 2013 04:21:03 +0000

Thanks Greg, welcome. That’s a interesting logical argument, but not a probabilistic one.

Like any argument it has its axioms, and I suppose believers would contest those. But I’m not a believer, and I tend to say that I believe there is no God (i.e. a positive statement, not just that I don’t believe there is a God), for similar reasons: I think most concepts of God are self-contradictory. But not all. One thing about humans is they are endlessly creative, particularly when it comes to creative rationalizations for what they want to believe. So I suspect arguments from logic (like yours) or probability (like the one in this post), don’t do anything much other than make people feel that they are even more right than they previously thought.

Comment on What is the Probability of God's Existence? by Greg

Greg — Fri, 17 May 2013 03:25:16 +0000

The probability of God existing is zero. It is impossible for there to be a god who has been around forever and who also created everything in the universe. If there is a god, he must be made of something, otherwise he wouldn’t exist. Therefore, this substance of which he is made, whatever it is, must also have existed forever, which means that God didn’t create everything in the universe because he couldn’t have created the very substance of which he is made. If this substance has existed forever then the rest of the universe could have existed forever. Therefore, there is no need for a god.

Comment on Things Progressive Christians Rarely Say: Your God Does Not Exist by Ian

Ian — Tue, 14 May 2013 16:36:39 +0000

@sabio – yes “God” is a passport to certain kinds of conversation, I think. I’m not asking progressive Christians to not use the word, I understand and respect what it means to them, even though I don’t find it useful personally. I wonder if the ambiguity about what you mean by God is part of the passport’s validity. Someone in my philosophy group was asked how he’d describe his religious affiliation to someone, given we couldn’t work out if he was a buddhist, atheist, or agnostic. He said “in whatever way I think would be useful”. Perhaps in the US particularly, having an ambiguous God is useful. I don’t know. Interesting point though.

Comment on Things Progressive Christians Rarely Say: Your God Does Not Exist by Ian

Ian — Tue, 14 May 2013 16:32:33 +0000

Morgan, thanks for commenting, and welcome to the blog.

This post was not an attempt to say that progressive Christians should be atheists at all. I was making a point about the connection between progressive Christians and fundamentalists, which strikes me as a very uneasy connection. I suspect you may be arguing against a point I’m not quite making, at least not in this post.

Your views I know a lot of progressive Christians hold, and I respect them (with a few caveats). There might be an opportunity for me to address why I don’t personally hold them at some point: I still owe a follow up post on why I’m not a Christian. But it would be unfair of me to do that here: I don’t want to derail the conversation to be about me and my beliefs.

Comment on Things Progressive Christians Rarely Say: Your God Does Not Exist by Morgan Guyton

Morgan Guyton — Tue, 14 May 2013 16:21:02 +0000

To me, the biggest problem with atheism is it’s an attempt to live outside of any story. I don’t think you have enough of a foundation for human community if you banish all mythos and try to live by reason alone. I live inside the Christian story. The “facticity” of it is irrelevant to me. I choose to interpret reality as a “you” rather than an “it.” I choose to understand my relationship with other Christians as being parts of a body which is greater than the sum of its parts. Within this framework, I’ve been able to build deeper relationships than outside of it. I also believe stubbornly the way that Slavoj Zizek believes about communism that if Christianity were really understood and tried, it would result in revolutionary emancipatory politics. Just because every attempt to embody it has always failed doesn’t mean that the vision itself is rotten. I’m not going to be talked out of it. Part of my sense of duty comes from knowing that my people are the cause of many problems in our world and I’m supposed to evangelize them out of a screwed up interpretation of Christianity.

Comment on Things Progressive Christians Rarely Say: Your God Does Not Exist by Ian

Ian — Mon, 13 May 2013 22:49:12 +0000

So it’s hard to be a dick about it, although we wish we could.

Perfect.

Comment on Things Progressive Christians Rarely Say: Your God Does Not Exist by Luke

Luke — Mon, 13 May 2013 22:37:21 +0000

“There appears to be a weird kind of subconscious fundie-envy in progressive Christianity. Which, of course, fundies love to beat you over the head with.”
-Ha! Absolutely! I’ve had to learn it by watching my church and then actively fight against it.

We wish we could be so damn certain, but what we know renders humility. And what we believe in fosters it. So it’s hard to be a dick about it, although we wish we could.

Comment on Things Progressive Christians Rarely Say: Your God Does Not Exist by Ian

Ian — Mon, 13 May 2013 16:29:00 +0000

We’re not Christian enough for the conservative Christians, and TOO Christian for the atheists.

I can see how it could feel that way. But that’s not what I’m saying.

In fact, I think you’ve actually demonstrated the the problem I’m referring to.

There is this idea that there is a scale, and that evangelicals or fundies are “very Christian”, and that those down in the progressive end are just weak, lesser Christians. And that kind of scale seems to be something that quite a bit of Progressive Xn rhetoric buys into.

There appears to be a weird kind of subconscious fundie-envy in progressive Christianity. Which, of course, fundies love to beat you over the head with. And manifests in an uneasiness with being seen to tackle fundie theology (as opposed to politics) head on.

Comment on Things Progressive Christians Rarely Say: Your God Does Not Exist by Luke

Luke — Mon, 13 May 2013 16:22:12 +0000

And as I enter into this conversation, I read a faith statement from one of my church’s confirmands. She wrote: “This paper would be easier if inclusion weren’t such a high value in my life. Exclusion is easier than inclusion. Inclusion requires more innovative thought and more creative language. Inclusion requires re-stretching, re-shaping, and re-fitting (and maybe it requires us to be OK with things not fitting, too). Challenge accepted.” The things that follow are equally brilliant as well. But this states the problem. Conservative Christians deny this, atheists largely don’t have to deal with it.